Today, we are joined by Laith Marouf, founder of Free Palestine—an activist known for his uncompromising stance and deep, research-driven analysis of global power structures. He is in conversation with Moeed Pirzada, editor of Global Village Space and a prominent political commentator, known for hosting in-depth discussions on international affairs.
In this interview, they explore the widening conflict involving Iran, Israel, and Hezbollah, the evolving nature of modern warfare—from drone technology to ground resistance—and the broader political transformation unfolding in the Middle East. The discussion also delves into deeper questions: the collapse of historic Arab states, the role of Western-backed regional powers, and whether the region is moving toward a radically different future—including the possibility of a single democratic state in place of the long-debated two-state solution.
Date:26 Apr 2026
Dr Moeed Pirzada: Mr. Laith Marouf, I will come straight to the point. In the last 24 to 36 hours, two major developments have happened. The ceasefire which Donald Trp pronounced with a lot of fanfare from the White House has not held in Lebanon and the American delegates Steve and Jared Kushner could not travel Islamabad because the Iranian delegation led by Iran’s foreign minister Dr. Abbas Araghchi left without meeting the Americans. Quite a slap on the face of United States. How are you looking at that situation?
Mr. Laith Marouf: Well, in terms of Lebanon, obviously from the beginning of the quote unquote ceasefire between the United States and Iran, as we heard originally from the Pakistani officials that Lebanon is part of the ceasefire and then we heard the United States back out of that and give the Zionist freedom of operation basically in Lebanon claiming that it’s outside the jurisdiction of the ceasefire and Iran of course refusing to have a ceasefire if Lebanon is not included in it. And we saw in that first 24 hours after the original Iranian American ceasefire, first 48 hours, the Israelis attempting to capture Bint Jbeil is the biggest town in the central zone of the border between occupied Palestine and Lebanon. And it is significant because it is where the martyred Syed Hassan Nasrolluah gave his famous speech that Israel is weaker than a spider’s web in the year 2000 after the liberation of South of Lebanon from the occupation.
So, they attempted to capture it and failed although they threw in more than 100,000 soldiers on the border with Lebanon. 3,000 to 5,000 fighters from Hezbollah fought them back and they could not achieve that symbolic win and then the ceasefire coming into effect after that I guess the window that Trp gave to Netanyahu to have some symbolic victory.
But even with this ceasefire coming into effect, we see the Israelis continue to destroy villages that they have occupied and bombarding areas in South Lebanon. So, it seems like the Israelis wanted to stop bombing Beirut or the major parts of the country, but they still wanted to continue attempting to have some military realities changed on in the South Lebanon.
And Hezbollah, of course, once it realized that this is what the Israelis are doing, also began fighting and firing on Israeli positions inside occupied parts of Lebanon and in North Palestine. And according to official Israeli statements, yesterday for instance they had announced that 48 of their soldiers were either injured or killed in South Lebanon and the numbers are much higher as well as announcing upwards of 14 operations attacking these forces in South Lebanon.
Dr. Pirzada: I have few questions. I have been looking like a student of Middle Eastern politics and international relations. I have been looking at this conflict of the Arab-Israel conflict. Correct me if I am wrong, apart from the 1973 Yom Kippur War and the Egyptians giving a tough time to the Israeli Defense Forces, I haven’t seen any other Arab force giving such a tough fight to the Israelis. What are the reasons that the Hezbollah which is in a tiny area between the Litani River and the and Israel’s border always give such tough time to the Israelis. What is so special about Hezbollah?
Mr. Marouf: Well, there’s multiple reasons. One of them, of course, the geography of South Lebanon is a fighter on its own. There are a lot of hills, valleys, and mountains. There is one clear line that any mechanized military invasion must pass through. Therefore, we can build defensive lines. The other is of course that they are the people of the land. So, they know every nook and cranny and every place that they can hide and fight from.
Hezbollah had built amazing fortifications, underground tunnels, and bases all around and has developed its own techniques. I think much of this war that we saw over the last two and a half years, whether it is in Gaza or in Lebanon or now in Iran is changing all the theories of warfare. In Gaza we had all those kilometers of underground cities and tunnels that made a the battlefield into a four-dimensional battlefield instead of just a three-dimensional battlefield and created that defensive situation where Gaza and the resistance there can withstand the onslaught that we saw over the last two years and similarly with its underground tunnels and its technologies of drones and missiles that it developed by itself other than the ones of course it purchases from Iran or the equipment like the APGMs the anti-tank missiles that it got from Russia.
A lot of its technologies are really designed for the battlefield and the enemy that it knows about. So, I think Hezbollah has created new kinds of warfare and they also learned a lot from the battlefield in Syria. Everybody learned from the battlefield in Ukraine with the use of FPVS those little drones that have explosive shells on them where ‘re attacking advancing. So, the Israelis lost over 200 and something tanks over the last two months here.
Dr. Pirzada: That is interesting because I also saw r excellent discussion with American journalist Chris Hedges and mentioned that Israel may have lost up to 200 tanks. But I have not seen any such mention of losing 200 tanks anywhere in the international media or the Israeli media people. I mean how can they hide this?
Mr. Marouf: I mean there is clear footage that we all watch on the internet as well as Hezbollah releasing daily videos of its successful attacks on tanks and on APCs and armored vehicles as well as all the footage from the media that is positioned around the South and is looking at the battlefield. It was daily that four to eight tanks were being taken out of commission, whether destroyed or damaged. And we have been seeing more of the older generation of Merkava on the front lines in South Lebanon, which means much of the advanced Merkava are out of commission. so, I think the damage that was done to the armored divisions of the Zionist military invading South Lebanon is much larger than the Israelis are admitting.
When add to it the fact that Iran destroyed much of the factories of these Merkava’s or their storage places or their machining areas as well as the shortages in deliveries for metals that are needed for creating the armor as well as the fact that a lot of its components are bought from Germany and other countries and there’s shortages of deliveries of those. So, could see that the situation on the ground for the mechanized divisions of the Israeli army is very horrible.
Dr. Pirzada: When has Iran destroyed these factories and these storage facilities of the Merkava tanks in the last 30-40 days?
Mr. Marouf: Yes. I mean both Hezbollah and Iran were targeting a lot of the industrial areas around Haifa around Safad near the Sea of Galilee as well as in the Negev Niqab desert around Tel Aviv and Merkava.
It is not only that it was airports or air defenses or technology or Mossad or the axis of resistance attacked. It also included a lot of the industrial bases where the manufacturing of weapons is happening for the Zionist colony.
So, the shortages that we talk about in terms of munitions that the Americans and the Israelis are facing include the destruction of these factories that were producing a lot of the Merkava pieces for equipment and the munitions.
Dr. Pirzada: How come all this information is hidden from in the mainstream media? I missed it, but I have not seen it because I consume this information daily. I have not seen any news story that mentions that so much of the Israel’s military infrastructure has been destroyed in the last 40 days of the war. So where do we find out this credible information?
Mr. Marouf: Every time, Hezbollah attacked a target in the Zionist colony, it announced it said we are attacking this zone, this industrial zone beside this location for this reason. So, there is a clear mapping of the targets that happened. When we look at the satellite footage that just came out even today for instance of the American bases in the Arabian Peninsula.
There was footage just released today by CNN about the central command of the navy American navy in Bahrain and the base is looks like Gaza. There is nothing standing in it. So, if this were what was happening to the American bases, could imagine what was happening inside the Zionist colonies.
Dr. Pirzada: Mr. Laith Marouf, there could be one difference. The GCC countries and the American bases were geographically closer to Iran for more precise hitting. Israel, on the other hand, the Iranian missiles had to travel 1,000 km. So, with the accuracy and the multi-layer defense system of Israel, still a surprising thing for me that Iran could hit so accurately inside Israel.
Mr. Marouf: When we saw how Iran was using all those hypersonic missiles and those very advanced, very precise ballistic missiles and multi-warhead missiles that they were firing, those had much bigger damage effects.
They have bigger warheads than the ones that were being fired on bases in the Arabian Peninsula. And the fact that the United States government ordered all satellite imagery companies to withhold any images from the Zionist colony for the next 90 days at least until they give them another order to expand that ban is a clear indication that there is huge damage.
When we look at how many Israeli tourists are practically living half of their life in Cyprus and Greece indicates there is huge destruction even in residential areas. Those missiles that were falling on Tel Aviv with multi-warheads breaking up into 40 warheads. This takes out multiple blocks at a time. It is not just one building falling.
Iran itself is not sharing those images because Iran does not want the United States to know the advanced imagery it has in it satellites. China is not releasing those images and Russia are not releasing those images. If all of them have decided not to release images of what happened inside the Zionists colonies, while we get constant images of American bases, it means the damage is that bad that maybe releasing those images will trigger the Israelis to do something crazy to cover up for their failures
Dr. Pirzada: appeared in Chris Hedge’s discussion and must have been following the discussions that are taking place between Douglas McGregor and so many others like Professor John Mearsheimer there is a lurking fear that at some point the Israelis can get so desperate that they can use the technical nuclear devices against Iran. Do you share that fear?
Mr. Marouf: This is the only thing right now that is standing between us and the liberation of Palestine. if remember within a week of October 7th, the largest naval armada in the history of humanity was amassed on the shores of Lebanon and Palestine. Almost 90 aircraft carriers and destroyers and corvettes from all nature. So the axis of resistance had no choice but to slowly degrade the power of the imperialist alliance and slowly condition humanity to see the truth about Zionism as a genocidal ideology that is supremacist cults trying to end the world and now we see because the fact that the axis resistance drag this war instead of making it a one-off war.
We have the whole of humanity now conscious about the crimes of sadism and what does it mean to all humanity not only to the Palestinians the existence of this genocidal colony. I think at this moment with the United States blinking from the use of nuclear weapon itself against Iran. This means that no western power is going to use nuclear weapons to defeat Iran. Meaning the axis of resistance is winning. There is nothing to stop it.
What remains is the responsibility of the European powers that played a role in shaping this crisis in the Arab world. At the end of apartheid in South Africa, there was a clear duty to prevent extremist elements from resorting to nuclear weapons during a period of internal resistance and transition. The international community acted to dismantle and remove those weapons from the apartheid regime.
In the same spirit, there is an argent that similar accountability should apply today. If nuclear disarmament was enforced in South Africa, then comparable measures should be considered elsewhere, including addressing the nuclear capabilities associated with the Zionist state, with involvement from major powers such as France, Germany, and the United States.
Dr. Pirzada: Israel developed these nuclear weapons itself. It did not borrow or obtain nuclear weapons from any European country.
Mr. Marouf: The French helped them build the whole thing, the American spies of the Musad that stole all the uranium for the beginning of the program and that Jonathan Polard spy stole a lot of designs of nuclear weapons and so forth from the United States. Israel cannot exist without the west in general. It is not only about nuclear weapons. There is a lot of mythology about Israel as a great nation that has innovations or money or whatever it is. But this is a colony that has been living on financial aid and preferential treatment from the west since its creation. Only crazies go, for instance, build factories in a war zone. Why would companies like Intel and others build these multi-billion-dollar projects in the Zionist colony?
It is not because somehow the Israelis are more innovative and smarter than other human beings. This is a tax to force make sure that the economy of the Zionist colony can work out and can look like it is something innovative. There is nothing innovative about anything that the Zionist colony does and it is just a leech on the western economies.
Dr. Pirzada: So, I am a bit surprised that while referring to 7th October you sound optimistic as if 7th October has done something positive to the trajectory of the Palestinian history. The predominant view even among the Muslims across the world that 7th October was sort of a blunder by Hamas that actually led to this massacre and killing of the 1200 Israeli citizens and was tragic but then what followed was a huge tragedy in 65 to 70,000 people massacred in in Gaza and the whole question of the two-state solution is almost practically dead now. I am surprised that you sound optimistic.
Mr. Marouf: Yeah, I sound optimistic because you look at what unfolded after October 7th and yes, we can talk about death and mass death. But what was happening before October 7th is Arabic and Muslim states were all normalizing with the Zionist colony. The Palestinian issue and Palestinian rights were disappearing from international agenda. Zionists were expanding in into the West Bank and there were constant killings of Palestinians all over.
The Israelis were going to respond with a genocidal action and those who designed October 7th knew. Why? Because what happened beyond this is that today there is nobody on this planet that does not know what the word Zionism means. Today, nobody on this planet from the smallest village to the smallest child that is on Tik Tok has seen the genocidal actions of the Zionist with their own eyes. There is now a collective consciousness that is impossible to defeat. There’s a hundred years of propaganda by the imperialists and the Zionists to brainwash humanity to justify the existence of a Jewish supremacist colony have been erased.
Dr. Pirzada: On the contrary, there was some reports that were published by Washington Post and by New York Times that said that Israeli intelligence had information several months in advance that the Palestinians can do something like that. But there was some sort of failure which makes many people believe that Israelis allowed whole thing of 7th October happen so that they have a reason to strike back at the Hamas and Palestinians thus ending the whole two-state solution.
So now while you look that a progress has been made what we see is this that the whole idea of a Palestinian state has collapsed and when you look at the board of peace there is no visible sympathy for the Palestinians apart from Iran. No Arab country is taking a position for the Palestinians.
Mr. Marouf: look two-state solution is dead Thank God because the two-state solution is a ban to stand solution where the indigenous Palestinians are put onto reserves like in Canada and the United States. That is what the two-state solution was and the collaborationist’s class of Mahmud Abbas that does not represent anybody the prime minister of the non-authority. Okay. Non authority, non- Palestinian even have now become irrelevant as he should have been. This idea that Israel somehow knew about October 7 unfortunately was also repeated by a lot of people that call themselves critical Jews that are critical of Zionism. This idea is really rooted in Jewish supremacy, right?
And whatever you read in Israeli media or western media about this was all propaganda to reinstall in people’s mind that somehow these chosen people are so smart are so all-seeing are so all powerful that they can know about this and play it supposedly to their advantage just to hide the fact that those barefoot Palestinians can defeat the supposed most sad the glorious most glorious intelligence everything look everything that you will hear about Israel is in it’s based in this idea of manufacturing supremacy in the minds of the viewers and I do not agree with this assessment. I refuse it because it is all about Jewish supremacy. And so, the two-state solution was a curse on the Palestinians. It was an abomination in the anti-colonialist struggle history. And the only reason that the two-state solution was put on the table in fact was the collapse of the Soviet Union and the fact that much of the non-aligned countries found themselves as possible victims of attack by the United States with no Soviet Union to somehow stop the United States.
And as we saw the minute the Soviet Union collapsed in 1989, we had the war on Iraq, we had the war on Yugoslavia and then things were clearly rolling in that direction and all the Gulf countries stopped the money funding to the PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Organization and Yasir Arafat and they were basically cornered into having to come and agree to what the indigenous people of the United States were forced into those okay, where there become like animals or plants that a reservation is made for. Okay. And luckily, we had Palestinians that refused this and fought. And now today clearly if there is no two-state solution, there is only one solution which is a state for all the people that are there and therefore that is the liberation of all of Palestine and the end of the Jewish colonialism project.
Dr. Pirzada: This needs some sort of explanation because this frightens many people across the west. I was at Colombia University took lectures with Professor Edward Saed and read his books. He was always against the two-state solution. He always thought that there must be one state for the Jews for the Palestinian for the Arabs for the Christians for the non-believers just like any modern secular European and western state is.
So, when we talk the moment, someone says from river to the sea Palestine will be free. The idea that is interpreted in the western minds is that it is calling for the death and destruction of the Jewish population. The eradication of the Israel as such.
What you are saying I understand from Austin intellectuals is that there must be one state with human values for the Jews for the Palestinians for the Christians for the non-believers a secular modern European and western style of state is this what I correctly understand?
Mr. Marouf: look if you talked to me about this 15 years ago that is what I would have answered but after this genocide broadcasted for 2 and 1/2 years now on our televisions and the ethnic cleansing in Lebanon and the attempt to eradicate a whole civilization in Iran.
We are past that point, and I know organizing in student spaces and organizing in labors unions and community spaces and media in Canada and the United States for 25 years. I knew we had to for a long time try to figure out can we educate this public and we have achieved that education. We are way past that. And what was the result? The result was that even though the vast majority of western public are against the genocide in Gaza and for the liberation of Palestine, their states, their politicians refused to represent the will of their people.
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So, for us as Palestinian that means that given that the public in the west is not willing to confront their governments to make them represent their will in terms of their position on ending the genocide and having equality in Palestine. That means for me that the opinion of Western audiences is irrelevant.
So, if there was some time that us as Palestinians, as Arabs, as Muslims, that we had to speak white as Malcolm X will say or speak in such language to have the western audience accept our humanity and accept our position. Well, they have already accepted that. number one. And now they are looking for the facts unflowered, unperfumed.
And the fact is if there is a one state in the land of Palestine, the vast majority of these colonists will refuse to live amongst the indigenous people and will go to the United States, Canada and Australia mainly where they can continue to safeguard their supremacy and feel like privilege.
And as we see in those countries like Canada and the United States and Australia, these governments are putting protections for these individuals more than their own let us say white population with those laws that are to safeguard Jewish supremacy. And so, I believe most colonists will leave once there is equality in the land of Palestine. And this is why we see it that they are trying to fight till the last breath about it. Refusing to accept the humanity of Palestinians.
Dr. Pirzada: But coming to the if we looking at the second theater of war now, Iran, what do you think is going to happen next?
Mr. Marouf: In the last few hours, we saw, the Iranian delegation left Pakistan. the United States delegation just did not go., the blockade is still ongoing. The buildup of American, military equipment in the region continues.
the war in South Lebanon continues and so I think we will be back into full military confrontation any minute now. I do not know when, but it seems like it is remarkably close. What will the US do differently? I do not think it has the capability to do anything different than it did already and the more it brings equipment and soldiers to the region, the more targets Iran has given the total degradation of the radar systems and the air defense systems of the American coalition in the region during those 45 days. It is impossible for the US to rebuild all of that and the locations of the few bases that are now much of this power is gathered in are known to everybody.
There are at least 11 American bases that are destroyed in the region, and the US is not going to move its troops into them. it has no choice but to move to the few bases that are still standing and so we will be back into that cycle, and the United States will lose more of its power.
Dr. Pirzada: Mr. But Iran has also suffered very badly with 21,500 targets inside Iran being hit by Israel and United States. Is Iran’s military structure, its IRGC structure, its top leadership, its industrial base, the schools, colleges, universities, its bridges, its rail stations, its police stations, its judicial offices, its roads network, everything has been destroyed. , Iran is also suffering very badly. What do you think is a way out of this conflict?
Mr. Marouf: Well, look, all the things that you mentioned that were targeted are civilian infrastructure. the industry base of building the weapon in Iran is safe. All those missile factories and missile cities underground and drone cities and drone factories are intact. That is what you count in a war. Yes. If we want to judge wars by capability to kill civilians and target civilian infrastructure, well, that does not win wars. And if that if the intent is to break the will of the people, well, Iran is not going to break under those conditions. And the Iranian people are only going to want to fight back more. so this is where what we see the imperialists being stuck in right now and when I say imperialists that includes the Zionist in the battlefield and who’s going to hit what military targets and the effects on the military industries Iran and Hezbollah are winning and the Yemenis and the Palestinians in the realm of mass massacres for just the hell of mass massacres and destroying schools and universities and mosques and churches and synagogues. Well,
that is what the United States is good at. Does that win a war? Of course, it does not win a war. Especially that a war that has been ongoing for a hundred years now and a war against the indigenous peoples of the region where the Zionists are demanding the Palestinian. This is the problem with the two-state solution. You are demanding from the Palestinian to acknowledge that he is not indigenous, that this Jewish European convert is an indigenous person to the land. Of course, that is a zero s game from the Zionist, not from us. And similarly with all this expansionist Zionists, they are talking telling the Arabic people that they are the colonizers. They are saying Arabs are colonizers. So of course, Arabs are going to fight that.
And now what we are seeing with this 100% religious position that the United States is taking and again this has been a religious position for one hundred years. When the British entered Jerusalem in 1917 the British newspapers published liberation of Jerusalem from Muslims for the first time from the crusades.
That was the headlines in the American and British newspapers in the end of World War I. So, they are asking Muslims to say that our religion and our prophet and our God are heretic heresy and that Judaism and this interpretation of Jewish supremacy is the correct thing. So, this is again something that is impossible. This is why Iran will have to fight. This is why any Arabic person who has honor, any Muslim people has honor, any Palestinian one of the creations of this Zionist colony, it was foretold that it is going to end. It is an impossibility to have every Palestinian bow down or every Arabic person even if all their leadership.
Dr. Pirzada: I understand that Muslim will also two-state solution two-state solution was always a very conceptual failure. I remember Edward Said and many other Palestinian intellectuals making it noticeably clear that two-state solution cannot work. It must be a one-state solution for the Jews, for the Palestinians, for the atheists and for the Christian.
But there is also an argent in the western circles that from 1948 till now there were many opportunities for Palestinians to have a compromised solution and every time when solution I mean whether in 1948 or 1967 or ’70s or ’90s the Palestinian leadership was not able to cinch the deal they missed the opportunity even in President Clinton’s time period. What do you say to that?
Mr. Marouf: Thank God. Thank God that none of them were cowardly enough to sign on the dotted line and then seal the fate of the generation after them that could have more the courage to fight. Alhamdulillah that even though Yasar Arafat began the process of Oslo when he was coerced inside his office in Ramallah besieged to sign on the dotted line to give up the land of Palestine. He refused, they poisoned him with plutonium, and he was a martyr.
Thank God he did not, even though he did. And thank God because that gave the next generation the ability to build itself to be able to fight back and change the trajectory of history. October 7th is why Iran today can destroy American power in the region.
The perseverance of the Palestinians and the refusal of the Palestinians to bow down to somebody that is demanding them admit that they are less than. Okay. Is why Iran can be fighting today or why we are talking about a multipolar world. If Palestinians did not fight back the American armies will already be at the door.
Dr. Pirzada: But is not strange that you a Palestinian and Arab Syrian Lebanese is relying upon Iranian support while all the Arabs are silent. I mean how do you explain that? I mean what about the Saudis, the Kuwaitis, the Bahrainis, the Omanis. I mean the Arabs are silent.
Mr. Marouf: The Arabic vasal regimes the Arabic people are not silent. Every survey done of Arabic public including ones like around six months ago including in the most oppressive regimes like the Saudi kingdom when asked about liberation of Palestine and or the acknowledgement of the existence of the Zionist colony 99% of Saudi citizens are for the liberation of Palestine and against the existence of the Zionist colony.
So, the Arabic vassal regime specifically these monarchies that were installed by the British at the end of the 1800s, beginning of 1900s and survived the decolonization era after World War II because most of all Arabic countries were under appointed royal families from the colonial powers.
It started in 1942. The first revolution in Syria took down that first monarch. And then so the Arabic republics that escaped colonialism at the end of World War II, we saw how they were all clobbered by the Americans after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Iraq, Libya, Syria, and Sudan, every one of them. And of course, those regimes that were vassals since their creation and survived the revolutions are now the only ones left that were not destroyed by the west and therefore, they are the loudest in their servitude to the west. Now even those voices that we see in the Emirates and in Bahrain that are or the way that Trump is talking to MBS talking about him kissing his behind.
That would not have happened if there was still at least Damascus. See the fall of Damascus on January 25, December 24 outed these people. They were scared still of Syria that was under war for 15 years, scared to out themselves and speak in such collaborationist ways or openly build war against Iran.
The Arabic leaders do not represent the Arabic peoples. And the liberation of Palestine the opt thing that will happen is not a creation of a state called Palestine after its liberation. What is the thing that will happen? The collapse of the psychosis border and the unification of Arabic peoples that have been artificially detached from each other chopped up by the French and the British to keep them weak.
Dr. Pirzada: You mean, like Lebanon and Syria and trans-Jordanian can all be together?
Mr. Marouf: That is the that is the least possible, first step. We are talking about the Levant, including Iraq, would immediately be unified. There’s, in a way, there is no state in any of these countries. Anyways, a functioning state in Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon, even in Palestine in terms of a Zionist colony.
Dr. Pirzada: Why do you say no functioning state?
Mr. Marouf: There is no service, there is no army to protect the territory, there is no monopoly fuse of force. What do you call a state? It is political science. You must have monopoly of the use of force and control of your borders. That is the minimum two things to have a state. And none of those exist, and it has been challenged by the West every even those colonial fabrications like the borders of Syria or Iraq or Jordan or Lebanon, even those the West was contesting from day one, from drawing it, and was not allowing the states to become fully functional. And if they did, as in the situation of Iraq, Syria, and Libya, they sent the whole armies of the empire to destroy them and make sure they are not functional.
Dr. Pirzada: I was recently reading that Israel, from 1950s onwards, has had a philosophy, strategic doctrine, which is called as the peripheral doctrine, or peripheral theory, that if the states in the periphery of Israel are weak, they are driven into chaos, they do not have central authorities, then Israel emerges more stronger. So, do you think that the destruction and the weakening of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya and now Iran fall into this paradigm?
Mr. Marouf: That is their hopes and aims. It does not mean that they will succeed. And, as we see, people are innovative. Lebanon, how many times has it been attacked, destroyed, and fragmented, for instance. And how can a small population like Lebanon and a small fighting force be so innovative that it can fight Israel 100 years on today, Syria, the fragmentation of Syria and the fall of the Assad government is looking like it’s a win for the Israelis, but at any moment, and it’s already happening now, there is births of resistance movements that are going to adjust to this reality and find the weakness in the Israeli presence.
And in fact, because there will be no president and a government that is central, that can stop people from just going to the border of the Golan and blowing up some Israeli positions. Things will be out of control, and there is no central ability to stop that from happening. And you will have the birth of something like Hezbollah in Syria. This is going to happen, and it is happening already. So a lot of times, the Zionists, because of their the hubris that fell to the whole empire after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and that talk of the end of history and the clash of civilization, right, that happened in Washington, and it went on this expansionist rampage, starting from Yugoslavia, Somalia, Iraq, so forth.
Well, this is happening also in the minds of the Zionists. They are losing touch with reality because of how hubris supremacist they are in their mind. And the fall of Damascus, I think, was the maximum reach of that Uber is, and now they are reaping the poison fruits.
Dr. Pirzada: So, you do not subscribe to the end of the history by Francis Fukuyama. You do not think that the thesis was correct?
Mr. Marouf: Of course not. That was like the most supremacist Western idea that could happen. In Islam, one of the names of God this time. Do not curse time for I am I, and to think that some human and be the end of history, or some Civilization the End of History, which is blasphemy, right? And this only comes from this same these supremacist ideas of manifest destiny for chosen people, we as Muslims know, there is no better race. There is nobody who is better than others. We are all born from one mother and one father, and if we speak Arabic or another language, does it make us better? What our color we are all capable, and all our cultures are supposed to be different, according to the Quran and I made you into different nations.
Dr. Pirzada: But it depends upon how you interpret Francis Fukuyama’s ideas? To my understanding, he was saying that the Western liberal democracy and capitalism has won over the rival philosophy of the economic philosophy of communism. So, communism and Marxism have failed to provide a solution to the people. People have rejected it, and therefore the Western liberal democracy, which is hardly liberal, hardly democracy. I mean, one can discuss, but this system is going to continue. It was not really a race-based theory. I mean, clash of civilization could have been culture and race, but Francis Fukuyama was more like political economy theory.
Mr. Marouf: It is crackpot. When you look at it, when you read the book, it is full of a lot of mythology. Really, is building this idea that Western civilization, somehow is the apex of human civilization and that there is nothing after it, and we are all going to have to adopt that model. And as we see, even that myth, myth of liberalism and freedom speech, human rights and international law have right now been buried in the killing fields of Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine. Even the West itself has dumped this Liberalist mythology and is now fully vicious supremacist, as we see the Minister of or Secretary of War of the United States how is using even false segments of Bible, but it is he is quoting pulp fiction movies. So, mythology has shifted in the Imperial core from this liberalism that did not work, that failed, that they are burying it themselves, and are moving back to colonial imperialist mindset from the 1900s to the 1600s, right? The language that we are reading right now is remarkably similar to the language of the 1600s and the 1700s so no, it is not. It was never the end of history. And there is no such thing as the end of history, until God says so.
Dr. Pirzada: So, then you also reject the clash of civilizations?
Mr. Marouf: The clash of civilization. Of course, I reject it. There is no intrinsic thing that makes us at war with each other as human beings. It is about economy. And , as we see, sometimes you look at what happened within Muslim for instance, empires, and I’m not supporting the existence of Muslim empires, but the difference in how multiculturalism worked in domains as that, or even the Romans, and they had a lot of problems, the multi ethnic, ethnic groups that they had, or multi linguistic and so forth. This is one way to even have an empire that is not clash of civilization. But as we see, the West has been trying to force the rest of humanity to adopt its ways and abandon its uniqueness. Each culture’s uniqueness makes it easier to manipulate us. Right? If we are all homogeneous culture, we all have, let us say, the same cultural cues and speak the same language and so forth, and behave the same way and dress the same way, it will be easier for them to manipulate us. If each of our culture retains its uniqueness, then we are not going to be easy targets for propaganda and mind manipulation. And it is a blessing, of course, for all of humanity that we are diverse cultures. The least of that is because we will never all agree on the same wrong, right?
Dr. Pirzada: That is itself an extraordinarily rich and big debate. But coming back to something which you said earlier, you refer to the GCC countries as vassal states, vassal Arab states. But the problem I see is this, that the these are the only Arab states that are that are that are performing very well economically and attracting investment. I mean tourism, multinational investment. People from South Asia, East Asia, are coming to work in Dubai, in Qatar, in Saudi Arabia, and rest of the Arab world is like a failing, large ghetto. I mean, how do you react to that?
Mr. Marouf: Look, I lived in the Saudi Kingdom for 12 years. And I know how the people there were living and were treated, both the citizens and the foreigners. Obviously, the repression is severe. And what we saw ISIS did in Iraq and Syria in terms of mass rape and mass destruction of sites. The Wahhabi Saud Kingdom did in 1930 as the British gave them the weapons to invade from Riyadh towards Mecca and every village.
Dr. Pirzada: They did not have Mecca before 20th century; the Wahhabis did not have Makkah?
Mr. Marouf: 1930 is when the Saud family invaded Mecca and Medina and the Hijaz. And when they entered Mecca and Medina, they destroyed all the shrines of the Sahaba, the companions of Muhammad and the whole family of Muhammad, they destroyed all the shrines in them, and everybody was forcefully converted to Wahhabism, all right. And of course, the repression that it continues. So today, of the Shia population in the eastern coast to the Dammam area, where all the oil and gas is undeniable. Every week there’s tens of youth being executed in the MAM region and the south of so Mecca.
Dr. Pirzada: So, Mecca and Medina were not with the present Saudi regime?
Mr. Marouf: These were independent areas until 1930 were part of the Hashemite Kingdom. Remember the Hashemite family allied with the British and invaded from the Hejaz, where Makkah and Medina are towards greater Syria region with the spy Lawrence and they retained control of the Hejaz, trans-Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. And then the revolts began in the Fertile Crescent. And eventually the British gave up on the king of the Hashemites and Hejaz. And they asked his two sons, the princes the amirs, princes of Iraq and Jordan. This is 1930 at the time the king of the Hashemites, still believed what the British promised him, that he will have a one Arab unified country Kingdom on his rule. And he was starting to complain, so they asked his two sons to withdraw their military protecting him in Hijaz, which they did. And the Saudis invaded, this is 1930 invaded Makkah and Medina.
Dr. Pirzada: And so, if the Hashemites, Lawrence of Arabia, and all that, I mean, you take us there, if the Hashemites had the support of the British, then who was supporting the Saudis?
Mr. Marouf: Also, the British. So, the British were looking for any sponsor, anyone will accept them to start revolt against the Ottomans, to open a Southern Front.
Dr. Pirzada: Ottomans were kicked out in 1916. Ottomans had already lost. The Ottomans were not there in 1930.
Mr. Marouf: Yes. So, we are going back, because you went to Lawrence of Arabia and World War One. Just in the middle of the war, the Ottomans were amazingly comfortable. They were sending all their army towards Europe, and the British wanted to open another front on them. And they looked, looked everywhere in the Arabic world, and everybody told them that had any decency. Said no, and then they found the two royal families.
Now they are royal the gang of the Saud family and the Wahhabi cult that were stationed in this middle of nowhere desert city, village called Riyadh, and the Hashemites that were angry that there was no money coming from the Hajj because of the war, and that were responsible for meccas, Medina’s protection, but they were still appointed by the Ottomans. And they both, the Saud family, and the Hashemite family led the rebellion against the British, sorry, the Ottoman presence in Arabia. The Saudis went east, and the Hashemites went north. So, this is where it is. And eventually, when the Hashemites role became a problem for the British, the British got the Saudis to take them out of Makkah and Madina.
Dr. Pirzada: You think that the structure, the architecture of control, which the Western powers had placed on the Arabian Peninsula in the form of the GCC, is not going to last exceedingly long. And you think that the Iran war has weakened that structure. Is this what you are arguing and summing it up?
Mr. Marouf: Yes, look, you were talking about how prosperous these areas are.
Dr. Pirzada: I mean, I am not exaggerating. These are the only prosperous areas in the Middle Eastern world.
Mr. Marouf: Yes, So, there’s multiple reasons for that. Number one is this artificially created countries that have small population, like Bahrain, that when it was created by the British had 40,000 population.
Dr. Pirzada:1.5 million is the population, and about half of them are foreign expatriate workers.
Mr. Marouf: Right now, the population of Bahrain, of actual citizens is around 400,00-450-00 is around 800,000 the population currently.
Dr. Pirzada: No, the local Qataris are only 225,000.
Mr. Marouf: So even smaller than the Emirates, it is around 800,000- 900,000.
Dr. Pirzada: About a million, maximum.
Mr. Marouf: When they were created, it was like 40,000- 50,000, This is not a state. This is a block in a city. This is something that is purposefully cut off because it has oil and gas to make sure that the money doesn’t go into building up the population centers, the natural population centers of the Arabic world, the Fertile Crescent, the mountains in Yemen, the mountains in Oman, those are the real population centers.
Dr. Pirzada: So, when you say they were cut off, they were cut off from what?
Mr. Marouf: Cut off from the natural expanse of the culture and the people. There is no the same families that are in the Emirates are the ones that are in Oman, that are the ones in inside the Arabian Peninsula, the tribes that are in the resort in Syria and Iraq are the same ones that are in the south, north of Arabia.
Dr. Pirzada: So, the resources were cut off from the main population.
Mr. Marouf: When you have appointed a vassal that you can give just a slow part of the money, Bahrain, Qatar, Emirates, Saudi they are not making most of their profits.
Dr. Pirzada: Who is making the profits?
Mr. Marouf: It is the oil companies. And so around only 10% is going into the budgets of these countries.
Dr. Pirzada: But these countries own oil companies. I mean, Saudis own Aramco, right?
Mr. Marouf: It is. But does it? Is it the one that builds the installations? Are they the ones that distribute oil and gas and sell it worldwide? No, the arrangement that these vassal regimes in the Arabic countries have is the same arrangement that the indigenous populations in the United States, like the one in Oklahoma, the Osceola, when they found oil under them, and then they went and drugged up some of their leaders and got them to sign some things, and then they kept on spending on them with alcohol and drugs and parties.
It looks like they are all rich, but most of the money was going to the colonists. This is what is happening. Been happening for the last 80 years since the discovery of oil and gas in the in the Arabian Peninsula and the region. If, as we see right now, immediately, last week, during the week, the Emiratis are asking for loans. How, where did this, all this money go? If they were not being robbed by the West?
Dr. Pirzada: I could not understand they are asking for a currency swap. But even though Trump said that they are rich, he was surprised that they are asking for this kind of currency swap. Why do you think they are asking for the currency swap?
Mr. Marouf: Because there’s, right now, nothing being popped up or sold, no gas, no oil being sold, therefore, the little money that they get from the sale is not there, and they have already spent whatever money it was given to them. They were shaken down by the West. We saw when Trp comes and everybody throws trillions of dollars at him; it is a shakedown. Boss is coming. He is saying, hey, I see your purse getting big, it is time to give me my skin, and that is what they did. So even though they have been allowed over the last 80 years to keep these vassal regimes, occasionally, they are also shaken down for that.
Okay, so small populations, even that 10% looks like it is a lot. And as we see naturally, if there were no borders in this Arabic region. Arabic populations would have moved back and forth, and the money would have been spread out. And the natural cultural capitals of the Arabic world, like Baghdad, Damascus, and Sanaa would have continued to prosper. They were trying to collapse the cultural centers of the Arabic world and the industrial centers of the Arabic world, and you manufacture new Arabs, a new Arab. Just like they were trying to manufacture a new Jew with this fabricated Jewish colony. It is the same idea was to create a new Arab and a new Muslim with this Wahabi cult.
Dr. Pirzada: a new Muslim. That is interesting.
Mr. Marouf: Yes, that is the experiment. They have been trying to create a new Muslim since the West really captured Mecca and Medina with the Saudis in their pocket. Not only, it is not only the fall of Jerusalem is standing in the way of liberating Arabic and Muslim people. The fall of Medina and Mecca to the hands of a cult that is at the service of empire, the Wahhabi cult has ruined Islam in general, and the reputation of Islam.
Look at what the Wahhabi called the true in our in the name of Islam across the globe, right? So, there was an attempt to create a new Muslim, and these vassal regimes in the Arabian Peninsula were a cornerstone of that attempt to create a new Muslim, a new Arabic person, a new Arabic culture, by destruction of Arabic and Muslim capitals of culture and economy.
Dr. Pirzada: So, from that perspective, I mean, of course, I understand your perspective, but this super architecture is now present. Is extraordinarily strong, backed up by the Western forces, even by many forces in the Muslim world. I mean, there is a financial interdependence of the oil economies. How do you see this whole structure giving way, melting away? Or, I mean, how can the structure go away?
Mr. Marouf: It is already going away. I mean, look, a country like the United Arab Emirates that we were seeing has around a million citizens, but nine million foreign workers. This has not existed in human history, ever such an arrangement?
Dr. Pirzada: Sorry, unstable. You mean it is very unstable.
Mr. Marouf: It is unnatural. It is not only unstable, but also unnatural, it is in contradiction to geography, even with the weather and the desert and so forth, right? It is in contradiction of history of nature. It is not to last these glass towers in the middle of a desert. Okay, so immediately, with this war, all the fragileness of this architecture of fabricating a new Arabic. First, identity and a new Muslim collapsed with a few missiles from Iran. Bahrain is around 90% Shia. They want to rebel against them who have been trying to rebel since the sixties.
Dr. Pirzada: Bahrain is 90% Shia.
Mr. Marouf: Yes, and the royal family of Bahrain is imported by the British from the Najd-a branch of the Saud family, to rule over them.
Dr. Pirzada: So, the Bahraini elite is less than 50,000?
Mr. Marouf: Yes, the Bahraini Elite is small family and the police in the streets of Bahrain are Pakistani, Indian, Saudi, and Jordanian. Okay, this is not a country, if you understand. Similarly, Qatar is two families, and part of them, the Nahyan family is also another branch of the Saud family that was imported by the British. So, the Emirates was always called the Desert of Oman, and you cut it off from the population, big population in Oman, just to give it oil and gas. So, you can play Epstein Island on it as an empire.
So, all these things are unnatural. Okay, the whole south of Saudi is part of Yemen. The three provinces that were occupied in 1930 the same invasion, time of the Sauds invading Mecca and Medina and the Hijaz. They invaded the north of Yemen, Abha, Sahil, and hail and sorry and Taif, okay, the three, three provinces of Yemen that are occupied by the Sauds since the 1930s. So, the north of the Saudi Kingdom is Syrian tribes, part of the Syrian desert. The coast, the eastern coast, is the same tribes as South Iraq, the Shia of South Iraq. So of course, if there is no Imperial, direct protection for these unnatural regimes, they will collapse immediately.
Dr. Pirzada: So, if we believe in your paradigm, these are synthetic states. What would be the natural, organic, real form of the Middle East?
Mr. Marouf: Well, you cannot merge it all at once, but there is a subcultural region like the Fertile Crescent from Iraq to Palestine. This is one subculture, the same dishes in the kitchen, the same recipes, the same music, instruments, the same clothing, same habits. The Arabian Peninsula is similarly the same thing, the foods that the habits, that, the music, so forth. You have the Nile Basin from Sudan to the Mediterranean. Again, one subculture, the greater Maghrib area. Again, one subculture. And all of that is one civilization, which is Arabic.
Dr. Pirzada: Do you see Egypt as part of the civilization?
Mr. Marouf: Of course, of course,
Dr. Pirzada: And North Africa?
Mr. Marouf: Yes, of course. There are four subcultures within the Arabic civilization, the Maghreb, the Nile, basin, the Fertile Crescent, and the Arabian Peninsula. So those are the four subcultures within the Arabic civilization. And notice I am using the word Arabic, okay? It is the language that makes us what we are. There is no such thing as a race or the Arabs. There’s Arabian people from the Arabian thing.
Dr. Pirzada: It is just a language. It is not a race.
Mr. Marouf: Yes, of course, there is no such thing as race. That is like pseudoscience to talk about race.
Dr. Pirzada: Remarkably interesting. I think I can have series of discussions with you on Middle Eastern history and politics and its nature and direction of political change, but Laith Marouf, thank you so much for taking time. And let us see what comes out of the situation in Iran. Now, since the Americans are not going, and Iranians have left, and Pakistanis must be extremely frustrated by the whole by the entire process. So, any quick thoughts, what do you expect are happening in the next 48 hours?
Mr. Marouf: We may see ourselves back in full military confrontation between the United States and Iran. If not, it will have to happen. There is no way that we will just stay in this non ceasefire much longer, and the battle zone in Lebanon could be the determiner of where we go. If the Zionist continue an ethnically cleanse, there is a big chance of this war, coming back to full force, taking over the whole region.
Dr. Pirzada: So, from what we have discussed and what you describe, it looks as if Donald Trump has been totally misled into starting this conflict. This is like he is unzipping something which was held in place. He suddenly, he has suddenly destabilized the whole region.
Mr. Marouf: Sometimes when people say that he is being manipulated. I understand why we do that. We want to blame everything on the Zionist colony and Netanyahu. But if from war games theory situation, when you look at the strategic goal of the United States, it is there is one goal, and that is to remain as the hegemon, the sole hegemon on the planet. And the rise of Iran and the Axis of Resistance threatens the most important geopolitical position in the world, the NOT of all transportation, trade and cultural exchange, this Western Asia region, and therefore the United States, if It wants to remain the sole hegemon on the planet, has no choice but to control this region.
Dr. Pirzada: You do not buy the theory, the American theory that Netanyahu has set up his use in exploiting Donald Trump. You think Donald Trump his own strategic reasons. But the American argent is this, that Donald Trump is not deep enough in strategy for American history. So, I mean, he has been misled and he does not understand what he is doing.
Mr. Marouf: I don’t think Donald Trp is in charge, and I don’t think there was ever democracy, and I don’t think there’s elections, and I don’t think it would have made a difference if it was Biden or Trump in charge, they would have had to do what they’re doing today because of the strategic goal, ultimate goal that they have, which is to remain the sole hegemon. Everything else is theatrics. I do not think Biden was governed either or Obama.
Dr. Pirzada: You said there are no elections. I mean, what do you mean by no elections?
Mr. Marouf: Yes, it is just theatrics. I do not believe those numbers. Otherwise, I would have to believe that Americans are this dumb, for instance, right? And I do not think any people are like this, I am not a supremacist.
Dr. Pirzada: No, but elections happen in a certain context. They can be manipulated. Public opinion is shaped. There is a structure in which elections take place, but elections do happen.
Mr. Marouf: I saw how elections happen on a smaller scale in both students’ unions and cities and provinces in Canada, and I am 100% sure that everything is fake and all the numbers are lies. Everything has been pre planned, and yes, the media makes you feel that the outcome is supposed to be this way. And it is all played in a lot of Hollywood dramas. But the same rulers that control the money and control the banks and control the media are already set on who they want.
The same people that brought Obama are the ones that brought Trump. They believe that the United States need a bulldog face because their liberal face did not work to keep the peoples that are rebelling in check. That is the truth of the matter. So, does not matter how stupid or smart the President of the United States are, they are just actors that are playing a role. It is not them that are making decisions. And that is 100% true since the assassination of John Kennedy is for sure.
Dr. Pirzada: Thank you once again. There are many things we can agree on. There are many things we can disagree with. I can disagree, but I look forward to staying in touch with you and thank you so much for your time. Mr. Laith Marouf, thank you so much.
Mr. Marouf: Thank you for having me. Thank you.
